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Supporting people in the community- RECIPROCITY

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  • Supporting people in the community- RECIPROCITY

    I'm not sure how it really works in this community, but if it's like most communities, I'm sure it works best with a bit of reciprocity. If you're an honest person, you will admit that you post your links to your stuff because you want some kind of feedback on it. It helps us to feel that people are at least listening and connecting with it, even if they ultimately don't like it. For myself, I've been a member of AO since 2013, and have been more active at times than at others, but in the last year, I have pretty much figured out that if you want feedback on your music, then you have to adopt a policy of reciprocity- meaning, you don't just 'post and run', and then expect to get great results. I spend a fair bit of my time on this forum just listening to and commenting on people's work here in the forum, but some seem to have adopted the policy of either posting all their stuff and refusing to comment on anyone else's, or if they don't like a piece, they think the diplomatic response is to pretend they weren't even there on the page to begin with. I've seen several people do this, and when you call them on it, they say, 'oh, well I've been busy'. That's all well and good, but just remember the rule of reciprocity. For that reason alone, I've adopted the policy of checking out new member's releases and commenting on them. Even when I don't really feel like it. Because it's the right thing to do. No doubt, there's always going to be people on this forum who will refuse to take the time to listen to or comment on others' work unless it's someone they know really well, or for a long time. To those people, I would say- just think about what's fair, and do the right thing. Apply the golden rule when it comes to that, because how would you feel if people just stopped listening to or commenting on your stuff all of a sudden. You're never too busy, if you just take the time.
    "All we have to do is decide what to do with the time that is given to us" - Gandalf, Lord Of The Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien

  • #2
    Often I don’t say anything because I don’t know what to say, I’m really new to this entirely so I have no knowledge. :d


    • #3
      I agree, although it's the nature of any forum to attract "post and run" types. I think I might adopt some of what you said above into a general announcement for new members or first time visitors.

      Synphaera Records
      Space | Time | Matter


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sonic Bodhi View Post
        For that reason alone, I've adopted the policy of checking out new member's releases and commenting on them. Even when I don't really feel like it. Because it's the right thing to do.
        I've seen you do this, and urge others to do the same. I support this policy, and I now try to go at least once a week into the Member Releases and listen and give some feedback. If more of us do this, I'm sure it would benefit the community. | |


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bedroom-inc View Post
          Often I don’t say anything because I don’t know what to say, I’m really new to this entirely so I have no knowledge. :d
          That doesn't matter. You're into the general genre (or you wouldn't be here), so you can at least say if you like it or not, and maybe try to express why or what you (didn't) like about a track. But even a simple "I enjoyed listening to that" is appreciated a lot!
 | |


          • #6
            S1gnsOfL1fe ablaut thank you for responding to this! I would have said exactly the same to Bedroom-inc.
            "All we have to do is decide what to do with the time that is given to us" - Gandalf, Lord Of The Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien


            • #7
              Wow.. it seems that this whole thread made NO lasting impression on anyone.. you all went back to doing the same thing you did before I wrote it.. I don't get what part of 'reciprocity' you're not understanding- how about the Golden Rule, instead- 'Do Unto Others'. You want comments or feedback on YOUR stuff, then do the same for other people. That's how it works. Otherwise you have no right to expect any feedback.
              "All we have to do is decide what to do with the time that is given to us" - Gandalf, Lord Of The Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien


              • #8
                Ego makes for a fickle bedfellow.
                I have plenty to say on this subject so choosing what to write has me somewhat perplexed.

                I spend a few hrs a day/night sitting/eating, drinking coffee here in my kitchen. I have a notebook and a pair of small PC speakers on this large table I sit at.
                Some days/nights I'll listen to a net ambient radio show I previously now, I'm listening to a Steve Roach live SomaFM set. I'm also browsing AO.
                If I happen to go into 'New Releases' (and I have my 'speed dial' set to open AO in 'New Releases') I may or may not pause what I'm listening to and play a member track. It might strike me to listen for reasons unknown. Mainly because of something the member wrote. If I feel the track is worth praising or maybe it strikes me another way, I'll make a comment. (if I don't care for it because I've heard that sort of crap over and over before, I won't tell you "Good job" or that I personally don't care for it.)

                If I post a track, I desire two things, critical feedback about how I could maybe make it better or learn something for my next track...or hear what you liked about it...what am I doing right?
                If I don't get any feedback, I just assume it just didn't turn any heads...for any reason, then I forget about it.
                I used to take getting feedback pretty seriously and I'd get upset if I didn't get any or enough good reviews. I don't feel it as a personal slight anymore. I've come to acknowledge that if I put out a good product, it will get attention. Don't get me wrong...I do think I've done 'well enough' with my tracks on SC even though I have only gotten a handful of written comments. I still know I can do a lot better, and that will bring admiration, so to speak.

                So for me, I know that the better my tracks get, less people will write more comments. That's the reciprocity. "Work harder, make better music, get more attention."
                That's not a hard and fast rule, but that's how I see it for me.
                Member Strahinja Maletic created a thread noting the Synphaera release of 'Perfect Form' HERE
                This was a very strong effort from Strahinja and I would have expected the thread see a lot of attention...but it didn't. Four people, that's all !!!
                So you really don't know I guess. Would be nice to get feedback all the time...I mean 'real' feedback, more human then the likes of "Good job" or "Real nice"...that's bot speak.

                EDIT - When I open a thread in 'New Releases' I would expect the 'Subject Icon' to change and stay that way allowing me to know, on return to the 'New Releases' page, which threads I have read. Problem is, after some time, it shows as 'unread' again.
                This is a problem for me since I don't want to have to listen to tracks I already heard and didn't care for, so I won't bother browsing the threads at all. Because names and song titles are rather obscure, I just don't always remember what I've read and this deters me from browsing.
                - I notice after 3 days they are all 'as read'. (title and icon are lighter) I need to double check all this to see if it's not intermittent.
                If this is actually happening for others and deters browsing, this might be worth looking at.
                Last edited by annode; 02-10-2018, 11:01 AM.
                "The dumbest of people are the first to tell you."annode
                My Music


                • #9
                  annode I appreciate that honest and indepth feedback. Yes, you are right, sometimes we want our egos to be acknowledged. I know that there are tracks I've submitted here that got maybe two comments, yet you go into Ello where I've posted these same tracks, and they got 2.4k views and been re-posted at least 3 times. So yeah, that's kind of funny how that works- the track in question is 'Glaciated', which I posted as AO challenge Image Dare #24. To me, it's not so much a matter of the quality of the track as to how much exposure it gets. There's stuff on here that is literally no better than mine (and worse!) that gets a LOT more attention and comments- maybe because people in this forum don't really know me that well, even though I've been a member since 2013- and every musician has some stuff that they've just thrown together really quickly and could have spent a lot more time on to polish it up. God knows, I've listened to things on here that I've thought I've heard a hundred others just like it, so I'm like you in that respect. I don't really want to applaud stuff that just seems derivative, or sounds like what everyone else is doing. These days, that's easier said than done, though. I always try to find at least one thing I like about a piece, though, so it doesn't seem like I'm just trying to put someone down. For myself, I don't really like to use the 'Simon Cowell' critiquing method- just hit them over the head with a hammer- but there is a lot to be said for honesty versus completely ignoring someone's efforts. On a forum such as this, a musician doesn't really want to feel like they're invisible, and I know I've felt that way very often on AO. Thank you once again for taking the time!
                  "All we have to do is decide what to do with the time that is given to us" - Gandalf, Lord Of The Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien


                  • #10
                    You make good points Sonic Bodhi. We can surely go into this subject deeply.
                    I used my kitchen time today to reply to as many posts as I could without forcing a comment out. I don't know if my replies will be taken as a positive thing or maybe it would have been better not to have replied to some, this is tricky. Some days I'm more forgiving and other days my mood is more sinister.

                    I'm happy that I've been able to 'let it go' when I get no replies, or little.(speaking from many active yrs at KvR)
                    My mood vacillates, and when I'd feel disappointed, it might make me depressed or angry and depressed.
                    Luckily my shell has hardened over the yrs. I realize people are much harder to control then ones own self.
                    I know I can't change the things I can't control.(sounds like Alcoholics Anonymous. not a drinker though)

                    If I had to sum up the general intelligence of people, just going by my experience at KvR, I'd have to use words like stupid, imbacile ,idiot. I know some of the KvR members are normal people, but many of those who are most visible are not. So I just logically realize that the ones who are most normal aren't previewing too many music posts and commenting, and those mostly who do, don't care much for my(our) sort of music. Anyway, that's my logic in general.

                    Here at AO, this site is dedicated to our sort of music so it attracts like minded people...right? Well, I know I have little control over people and it carries over to AO, so again, I don't sweat it.
                    At KvR it surely appears that it's clickish and many ppl seem to reply to the same ppl. It looks like ass kissing to me. Sorta what your asking ppl to do, to reciprocate. One hand washes the other, I'll scratch your know. In principle or ideally it sounds great...reciprocating...but for whatever reasons, your best being true and good to yourself and not feel ppl are 'doing something' when they are 'doing nothing'. Make music, post it and let yourself be. That's all we are really able to do.
                    EDIT - I'm going to try to be more proactive. ;)
                    Last edited by annode; 02-10-2018, 04:41 PM.
                    "The dumbest of people are the first to tell you."annode
                    My Music


                    • #11
                      Thanks for this complex subject..... one problem with the internet as a communication method, (email, twitter, etc.), is that it is very hard to be accurate with words. What, in conversation, might sound one way to a listener, can be misinterpreted by the reader and come out with a completely different take-away. I try to read posts here with the "half-full" mindset.

                      When I listen/view a piece, I always try to say something that I liked about the piece. If I feel strongly about something that I thought could be improved, I'll say that in as tactful way as I can. And that's what I'd like from feedback of my pieces. Often, just knowing someone listened to it (or part of it) is reward enough.

                      It seems many of us came from other genres, for me, fingerstyle and jazz guitar. That stuff is a long way from the ambient music I'm focused on now. So I'm bound to be derivative; I'm using the guitar/pedals/cables/DAWs/plug-ins that I've seen on YouTube demos and that the guys I follow use. So I don't think, for me, that saying this is derivative, is particularly helpful. I, for one, am in a process of evolving as an ambient musician. I listen to hear things that intrigue me, then I try to incorporate that into what I produce.

                      Ambient music is vast, like jazz or classical. There aren't many (any?) rules. I "know it when I hear it", but I don't think I could define it. So I'm leading up to say, there are a lot of pieces that are posted, here and other places, that I do not enjoy. I just now listened to a new posting here that is a drone for 4 minutes that essentially doesn't change at all. Some folks posted that they enjoyed it. I didn't. Some folk like to sleep to that sound, or study or read, to that kind of music. So, in that example, I could not think of any comment whatsoever. I did spend 4 minutes listening; and I did think about it. I do appreciate that he/she posted a finished piece; that alone separates him/her from 99.99% of players that noodle around but never finish anything. And I think my distaste for long unchanging drones is personal, and I don't want to discourage someone with my bias. I listened again, and found two things I found intriguing, and posted that. And in so doing, I learned a little more about what I do and don't like about drones.

                      On another (photography) site I follow, they use the 1-2-3 rule: for every 1 piece you post you must make a comment about 2 other's and "thumbs-up" 3 other photos. Seems like a good idea.

                      Latest YouTube piece:


                      • #12
                        good topic Sonic - i'm not as prolific a poster here as i would like to be and tbh i do most of my (limited) listening on soundcloud. generally i find when i do take the time to listen and share other people's music they are responsive and reciprocate the effort. i do like to listen to more than one track of an artist and get a feel for what they are up to. i think the traffic here is slower than perhaps it used to be - we all need to push a little more - the upcoming compilation has motivated members - what we need to do is push each others work outward rather than just among ourselves in our own ambient bubble


                        • #13
                          A subject close to my heart, having spent many hours listening to an absolute ton of stuff both here and on the Cakewalk forum.

                          It is so time consuming but, as far as I am concerned, a totally essential part of being in a music community like this.

                          That said, I have much catching up to do, which is my next task here, having just posted one of my latest in the members forum.

                          As for not knowing what to say about someone's music, I think the answer to that is simple and I would be just as happy if someone popped into one of my posts (before it disappears on to page 2) with a "nice" and thumbs up emoticon.
                          Bandcamp // SoundCloud // YouTube


                          • #14
                            Blimey! Not sure where my time is going lately. Yeah, I still sometimes find it easier to spend a couple of hours shooting at people online when I know I should be playing catch-up here.

                            Working full time again isn't helping, that's a fact. And my missus took a bit of a tumble last week and has lost use of her good hand. She's on the mend but initially, between looking after Val and working (at home, thanks to my kind boss) I've struggled to get online.

                            Anyway... Excuses excuses... I always try to get back up to speed when I can, and I'll be spending a couple of hours here this evening before I go to bed
                            Bandcamp // SoundCloud // YouTube