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  • Always an interesting issue to ponder. I feel like some things in ableton might not be ideal, but just reading the features of bitwig didn't really pique my interest, now if I were starting out today ...that would be something different altogether. So my daw thoughts mostly go in circles: logic and apple are completely out of the question, so is reason...I always thought Cubase was too expensive. That leaves S1, bitwig...and reaper, which I own, but use only rarely. I'll keep tabs on bitwig & studio 1, but so far, not enough benefits for me to warrant the opportunity costs of a platform change. Any FL ambient heads here?

    Tom, I guess there's some kind of NDA in place, but can you be more specific as to which problems in the betaforum turned you off live9? I heard a few things concerning obsolete & obscure code...but so far that hasn't really impacted my everyday work...will be interesting to see whether ableton manages to develop the core of their application any further.
    Last edited by phoenstorm; 11-12-2015, 01:08 AM.
    www.soundcloud.com/phoenstorm

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    • Originally posted by phoenstorm View Post
      Always an interesting issue to ponder. I feel like some things in ableton might not be ideal, but just reading the features of bitwig didn't really pique my interest, now if I were starting out today ...that would be something different altogether. So my daw thoughts mostly go in circles: logic and apple are completely out of the question, so is reason...I always thought Cubase was too expensive. That leaves S1, bitwig...and reaper, which I own, but use only rarely. I'll keep tabs on bitwig & studio 1, but so far, not enough benefits for me to warrant the opportunity costs of a platform change. Any FL ambient heads here?

      Tom, I guess there's some kind of NDA in place, but can you be more specific as to which problems in the betaforum turned you off live9? I heard a few things concerning obsolete & obscure code...but so far that hasn't really impacted my everyday work...will be interesting to see whether ableton manages to develop the core of their application any further.
      Well, I was quite happy with Live 8 at the time and enthusiastic when Live 9 went into open beta. (Pre-Bitwig that was, so no real alternative).
      A lot of users hated the new browser (me included) and some came up with very good ideas and reasons how to improve it. But the responses of the developers were totally off in some cases.
      One of the problems was, that the indexing was superslow at the time and you simply did not see a newly connected harddrive while it was indexed, since there was no longer a direct file browser, only the database driven access (that the indexing process used to crash all the time during beta did not help either). Now imagine you go to a gig with a friend, bring your stuff on HD and it takes about 45 minutes until you can even see the content. Pretty much impossible.
      Maybe you remember how abysmal slow the search in Live 8 was? Like several hours on my system, only for the Live folder?
      So here we were, having the hope for finally seeing a usable search but instead getting very funny comments from devs who seemed to have no clue about databases at all.
      When I mentioned "Search Everything" and how it was able to do a full index on all my HDs in about 5 minutes I got totally silly, defensive comments, as if I was asking for something totally off. :dunno:

      Then the browser did not allow for seeing multiple things like file date, size etc. only one of those at a time. And rating was not set by the user but by how often you accessed the file.
      For me it was an endless list of totally out of there stuff that made you wonder how detached you can get as a dev, developing an application backwards, removing functions instead of improving and adding...

      And then one user who really put a lot of effort explaining his (very good) ideas with mockups etc. got the reply from a dev that "he somehow seemed to be able to make things sound good" - I was totally baffled on what level we were discussing. Somebody made brilliant suggestions and was told he somehow cheated by making the ideas "sound" good?
      Lot's and lots of such silly interactions. :dunno:

      Yes it was a beta, so bugs and stuff were to be expected, but the whole feel I got from the interaction put me off big time.

      I later on had the pleasure to work for u-he on their Uhbik Reason Rack Extension GUIs, went to Musikmesse with them as booth-photographer and there I met the Bitwig Team.
      And man what a difference. Totally enthusiastic, always eager to improve and push stuff to the limits.
      I became a pre-release betatester a while after that.

      Now in the Bitwig pre-release beta, my large audio folder took very long to index at one time. Deja-vu I thought. I reported it and Claes did not stop optimizing until the indexing went from three quarters of an hour down to 12 seconds!!!
      And no, I did not have to explain why this was important even once, instead I was thanked for making them aware of the problem... ;-)

      On top of this impression I got from the devs, I have to say that the way Bitwig works makes much more sense to me.
      - Having the clip launcher next to the arranger (optional) and being able per-track to either play clips or arrangement tracks and switch fluidly between them is how it always should have been IMO.
      - I do not want track headers on the right. Call me silly, but I find Lives track headers in arranger totally annoying and confusing.
      - To this day, arranger in Live feels like the afterthought it actually was to me.
      - I totally love to work with Midi VSTs. Being able to put as many of them in one device chain is bliss. Being able to put audio effects in front, to for instance improve the guitar input for Midi Guitar from Jam Origins conversion to midi, then mangle that midi with VSTs, then put instruments and more effects, all in one chain...
      - I test a lot of VSTs, some of them not so stable. In BWS I can sandboxing each VST, and if one crashes, nothing happens other than that the GUI goes away and is replaced with buttons to restart the VST. The application never crashes because of a plugin.
      - Unplug a midi controller, re-plug it, BWS reconnects instantly. Not a common behaviour on Windows ;-)
      - Install a VST while BWS is running, see it pop up in the browser and use it right away.
      - The whole architecture is very clever: There is only one Bitwig launcher. The GUI is written in Java and running in 32 Bit (since 64 makes no difference there). But the audio and midi engine is always running in the most optimal bit depth, so if your OS is 64 bit, it is running in 64 Bit and can use all your memory. And finally plugins can run either in individual or combined threads, allowing to either prioritize stability or performance (although even the per-plugin sandboxing is very performant and hard to notice at all). Bottom line: you can pretty much forget about the whole 32/64 Bit business, BWS takes care of it.
      - Multiple VST folders anybody? ;-)
      - The new track groups can contain track groups can contain track groups... They can also have local send tracks. This allows to import full projects as groups into other projects....
      - Having multiple projects open at the same time and drag and drop between them, use one tab as sample collection or idea sketchboard.
      - VSTs and libraries are scanned in the background, so BWS starts very fast (6 seconds here from SSD), even if you installed a bunch of new VSTs (the start of Studio One 2.5 is abysmal slow for me for instance).
      - Audio rate modulation for all BWS factory devices. You can actually build VERY snappy custom compressors with the Audio-Mod device and for instance the EQ 5...
      - Multi-Layer-Automation: Record you normal Automation and then have additive and multiplicative automation curves on top, allowing you to "modulate" your original recording with a much simpler curve.
      - Audio and Midi receiver devices. Receive Audio and Midi from everywhere (very finegrained) in your project. This allows me for instance to use BWS for surround sound although it only has stereo tracks...
      - Layered Clip editing: select multiple clips/tracks and see/edit all the midi at once.
      - Per Note expressions for Polyphonic Aftertouch and MPE (ATM for factory devices but in the future for full MPE).
      - Hybrid Tracks: Mix Audio and Midi on the same track. YES.
      - Edit audio inside one clip, copy and paste parts of one audio clip inside of another. Only thing missing is crossfades, but otherwise you can do all the microediting you want inside individual clips.
      - Have Clips on sends and on the master - very handy for automation clips and such.
      - Bounce in place: select a clip or a certain amount of time and bounce it to audio on the track it comes from.
      - Support for 1,2,3 monitors and in 1.3 there even is a multitouch layout (developed together with Microsoft for the Surface 4).
      - Windows, OSX, Linux. Actually opening up the Linux market for more serious audio work. The developer who ported the u-he plugins to Linux now is part of the Bitwig team...


      Sorry, I am not really trying to sell BWS to anybody and I do no longer work for them, but after using it for almost two years (including beta) I simply can't imagine using any other DAW anymore.
      And yes, I am a pretty enthusiastic guy at times :-)

      Cheers,

      Tom
      http://www.screendream.de | “Do not seek water, get thirst.” - Rumi

      Comment


      • Vielen Dank! Thanks a lot, amazing insight! Yes, the browser is one of those things . Well if I find the time, I might give it a go...I share your enthusiam for small, dynamic companies. The question is, how long for me to get comfortable with the new platform? And as I said, a lot of recent ableton updates had a somewhat cosmetic feel to it...it'll be interesting to see whether they dare touch upon some of the more problematic & intricate things on the to do list
        www.soundcloud.com/phoenstorm

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        • Well, in the case of Bitwig for me it was less a "learning curve" (in the sense of something strenuous) but a fun exploration and opening up of possibilities. Similar to the new UVI Falcon where I just feel space unfold around me with possibilities (tonight I wrote my first Lua script for it :-) - this thing is so well thought out...!).
          This (new) kind of software gets me quite excited :-)

          Cheers,

          Tom
          http://www.screendream.de | “Do not seek water, get thirst.” - Rumi

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Thomas Helzle View Post
            ...
            And yes, I am a pretty enthusiastic guy at times :-)

            Cheers,

            Tom
            Enthusiasm ALWAYS welcome here!!
            Extreme complication is contrary to art.
            — Claude Debussy

            Hear some of my music at hearthis , Soundcloud, Bandcamp, or just say Ello! Also see H.P. Dronecraft collab with ontol.

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            • Originally posted by Windspace View Post
              Originally posted by Thomas Helzle View Post
              ...
              And yes, I am a pretty enthusiastic guy at times :-)

              Cheers,

              Tom
              Enthusiasm ALWAYS welcome here!!
              Thank you :-)
              When I read my post again I felt I maybe went a bit overboard... :blush:

              Sorry if anybody should feel overwhelmed :-)

              Cheers,

              Tom
              http://www.screendream.de | “Do not seek water, get thirst.” - Rumi

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Thomas Helzle View Post
                When I read my post again I felt I maybe went a bit overboard... :blush:

                Sorry if anybody should feel overwhelmed :-)

                Cheers,

                Tom
                Both here and at KVR I find your detailed posts very well thought out and clear. I am grateful that you are one of those who share your experience and knowledge freely.

                We are lucky to have you as part of our community here.

                Comment


                • Thank you very much aoVI :blush:
                  That is encouraging :-)

                  Cheers,

                  Tom
                  http://www.screendream.de | “Do not seek water, get thirst.” - Rumi

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by phoenstorm View Post
                    Always an interesting issue to ponder. I feel like some things in ableton might not be ideal, but just reading the features of bitwig didn't really pique my interest, now if I were starting out today ...that would be something different altogether. So my daw thoughts mostly go in circles: logic and apple are completely out of the question, so is reason...I always thought Cubase was too expensive. That leaves S1, bitwig...and reaper, which I own, but use only rarely. I'll keep tabs on bitwig & studio 1, but so far, not enough benefits for me to warrant the opportunity costs of a platform change. Any FL ambient heads here?

                    Tom, I guess there's some kind of NDA in place, but can you be more specific as to which problems in the betaforum turned you off live9? I heard a few things concerning obsolete & obscure code...but so far that hasn't really impacted my everyday work...will be interesting to see whether ableton manages to develop the core of their application any further.
                    Yes I'm an FL head. And loving it. I find FL very easy to use, the interface is quite logical and everything is only a click or two away from the main screen. It does just everything all the more expensive DAW's do. And it comes with a large number of great synths and instruments to start with. From what I've heard the piano roll is superior to any other DAW. Very easy to quickly compose. Also the ability to use ghost notes and "trace over" other channels in the piano roll, which is incredibly useful. Also since I don't know my scales all that well, I can have a muted channel with a specific scale so I can see it as ghost notes in another. Then I just "trace over". Automation is very extensive, pretty much any knob can be automated in any instrument or channel.

                    Fl Studio is not as suited to live recording compared to say Pro-Tools or Ableton. Its very much aimed at electronic music production, so perfect for my needs. If you do more live stuff then yeah, FL probably wouldn't do. And for some reason FL has often been considered to be limited to production of electronic music, which I can say is completely false :razz:

                    Hope all that makes sense:razz:

                    I wouldn't want to use any other DAW. I find it's very quick for me to use. But it's the only DAW I've really invested a lot time in so what can I say :P. If you haven't tried it, I suggest downloading the demo.
                    Oh and you get free lifetime updates! So pay once and you get the next iterations for nothing.

                    https://www.image-line.com/flstudio/
                    Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/fogparallax
                    Bandcamp: https://fogparallax.bandcamp.com/

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                    • In the 2000s I was Audiomulch with Reaper for mixing. Then I became a hardware nerd with occasional Ableton and Reaper user. In 2010 I became a Logic user, then I returned to Ableton but went to Tracktion for mixing and Usine for synthesis. Now I'm back to hardware + Reaper and I just got a cheap copy of Reason 10 for maybe ambient chill bedtime music.

                      Time marches on
                      Blink then it's gone
                      Make no mistake
                      It's vanishing

                      The clocks are overwound
                      The bells don't make a sound
                      They used to toll for me
                      I guess my time is now

                      You get up and sleep
                      And go to the bar
                      But how long have I been
                      Going on and on and on

                      It's too late now
                      No turning back
                      Atomic clock
                      The skys turn black

                      No daylight savings, now
                      Regret the time you slept
                      It's one third of your life
                      And precious minutes left

                      You get up and sleep
                      And go to the bar
                      But how long have I been
                      Going on and on and on

                      - Foetus
                      Last edited by Makrotulpa; 03-05-2018, 12:57 AM.
                      Makrotulpa - SKON - Blog - Soundcloud

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                      • Originally posted by Makrotulpa View Post
                        Reason 10 for maybe ambient chill bedtime music.
                        I still have my Limited license (open to offers if anyone wants a cheap upgrade to 10... ) but found I always ended up making the same kind of music with it, don't know if it's my lack of imagination or if it pushes you in certain directions...

                        I'm feeling restless again,a couple of times recently I've bailed on a session because I just got caught up in Reapers mechanics; if you don't use it's actions etc regularly then they're easy to forget. I think I've had more fun recently messing around with mulab and Live, wondering if I'd be better served with something that maybe doesn't get in my way so much (even though that's what I always claimed Reaper didn't do...)

                        I'm also definitely thinking in more 'non-linear' terms too, anyone here use more modular hosts regularly?

                        Latest release: never to be repeated

                        Hearthis | Soundcloud

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                        • Originally posted by GaryG View Post

                          I still have my Limited license (open to offers if anyone wants a cheap upgrade to 10... ) but found I always ended up making the same kind of music with it, don't know if it's my lack of imagination or if it pushes you in certain directions...

                          I'm feeling restless again,a couple of times recently I've bailed on a session because I just got caught up in Reapers mechanics; if you don't use it's actions etc regularly then they're easy to forget. I think I've had more fun recently messing around with mulab and Live, wondering if I'd be better served with something that maybe doesn't get in my way so much (even though that's what I always claimed Reaper didn't do...)

                          I'm also definitely thinking in more 'non-linear' terms too, anyone here use more modular hosts regularly?
                          "getting caught up ion Reapers mechanics" is the major disadvantage of Reaper for me as well. For example I just got back from a field trip and transferring recordings from my recorder to my desktop was not working because of Reapers arbitrary default project length of 10 minutes. That is found under "advanced" project settings and over-rides other settings to do with media item length. And it seems to get reset back to 10 mins every time I open a new projecc even though I have set it to "off" as a project default. I wasted quite a bit of time figuring that out Tuesday night. So now I have to remembe to check that setting every time I start a project - although I have no doubt an update will eventually fix it, it will also get broken some time in the future as well.

                          On the upside re modularity - using Reaper's free item positioning and items as containers of music plus instrument plus fx can be useful
                          SOUNDCLOUD https://soundcloud.com/greghooper
                          SPOTIFY https://open.spotify.com/artist/6cbbq2ZO0cjaKXquorwchW

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                          • I'm still using EnergyXT (it will be 10 years in December). When I first bought it, I used it as a normal sequencer. I only used the Modular view occasionally for the first couple of years, but as I became more accustomed to using it, it became an integral part of my "workflow". I can hear a definite shift in the style of my tracks since then. Coincidence? I doubt it.

                            Now for the bad news - 32-bit only
                            Whatsisname's Little Fluffy Clouds | Campsite | Hearthis | Orfium | SeismicTC | Twitter | Ello

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                            • I've got an EnergyXT license somewhere, always liked it's immediacy but found the later versions unstable. I see it's still for sale, €24, not a bad deal if you're aware of it's limitations/lack of development(?)
                              Latest release: never to be repeated

                              Hearthis | Soundcloud

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                              • I think I see a couple of crashes per year with 2.7 on Win7 (64-bit). I used to see a lot more than that with 2.5 and 2.6 on WinXP running on a much less powerful (and much older) machine. I haven't used version 3 much, so can't really comment about that.
                                Whatsisname's Little Fluffy Clouds | Campsite | Hearthis | Orfium | SeismicTC | Twitter | Ello

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